Curse

MisterB · Jan 04, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

[[Save Yourselves] was introduced as a PvE version of the original [[Watch Yourself], but ANet multiplied the armor bonus by 5. Just reduce the armor bonus to +40 or +50 in my opinion, or put it on a +3-5/Tactics, or +1-3/Tactics and Strength. Adding a recharge to limit the adrenline gain wouldn't hurt, but I see no need to put in an energy cost.

You could still maintain [[Shadow Form] with your proposed change, but not easily. Change it to Elite Form(no arcane echo) and add 30 second(or more, depending on recharge) skill disable for giggles. Probably drop the lose all enchantments clause with this change. This suggestion is not a serious one. Just pointing out it could be maintained. I don't play Assassin.

No comment on CoP; don't play Mesmer, nor do I have interest in joining CoP groups.

Limit the EotN cosumables to 1.

Off topic: The problem with hard mode is level design and build construction. ANet took the easy way by making more numbers for mobs, rather than designing team builds and level design to increase difficulty. Avarre has already covered this, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

And you just said eviscerate was good in PvE, stop talking.

A WE bar with Dismember will out-DPS an Eviscerate bar any day of the week.

The existence of a better alternative doesn't change a good build to a bad one. Besides, [[Eviscerate] spam can be fun. Not to mention great single target DPS.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

My problem with these threads is that starts with someone saying "Lets make PvE more challenging" but then it somehow ends in nerfs to what the most used builds are, regardless of they really being breaking the game or not.

UB was an easy example of a game breaking skill. Reduced all professions to either Ursan or Monk, killed faster than anything else and was more robust than anything else, with 0 build creativity or team planning.

Making PvE more challenging requires more than nerfing skills to PvP levels of power, because while monsters are dumb and dumber, they have loads of health, more energy regen, higher armor, higher attribute ranks and in HM attack, move, cast and recharge faster. They also have monster only skills and sometimes are supported by area effects.

We can kill them cause we have our own PvE only skills and we have brains.

Additionally we understand the game better now. I remember seeing a video from a guild, Eternal Pariah or something, that was at a time rank 1 in GvG, getting slaughtered in Sorrows Furnace. Who the hell gets slaughtered in SF nowadays, PvE skills or not?

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

A bit offtopic: the only way to make GW more challenging: ADD MORE CONTENT! No nerf or skill change will make the game challenging again.

Inra · Jan 04, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I think that easiet way to make HM PVE more challenging is to make them less predictable - for example in Prophecies Stone Summit Crusher has always same skill bar. Let's make some random magic when he spawns:

33% chance that he would have Stone Summit Crusher skill set,
33% chance that he would have Igneous Ettin skill set,
33% chance that he would have Mursaat Warrior skill set (of course without monster skills).

Enemy AI for all those skill sets was already coded. That would be easiest way to make HM PVE more challenge - for each group you never would be able to predict which skills they would carry (no more imba build for specified area at least not in HM).

Ultima pyromancer · Jan 04, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

I'm sorry but all this "balance" crap has gone on for too long. How do any of those skills affect the game or your enjoyment in any way?

So you would rather get rid of the ONLY thing that people actually group up for, just because it's "not balanced." Removing shadow form is only going to kill off the remaining PUG comunity in the game, other than of course the elitist PvE players that sit in kamadan and trade minipets.

The last thing this game wants is to be abandoned as a result of peoples enjoyment being spoilt. Its about FUN. Who are you to criticise what other people enjoy doing?
If you want to run balanced or whatever, im sure you can find some like-minded players and have a blast! But do not expect people to agree with your suggestions just because you don't like the fact that a "noob" has expensive armor. Nobody is stopping you from playing how YOU want to. Even if shadow form or cry of pain or save yourselves gets nerfed.. Will you be so satisfied seeing PUGs removed from this game entirely? or the 1 hour fissure of woe runs that don't make it past the forge master in normal mode. #

You don't seem to realise that there are other people involved.. I'm sure if it was me making a thread like this, people would say find another game. Trying to force people to play the way you want is not going to fix anything.

End of the day... Who cares how other people play the game. The economy is in NO threat at all so what does it matter?

/NOT SIGNED.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

The economy is in NO threat at all so what does it matter?
/NOT SIGNED.

Economy? Whats that?!? :P

People seem to want more challenges, but its a bit hard. I've like over 4000 hours played. Whats left for me in PvE? Other than some title hunting, some skin hunting, there's nothing else... only the enjoyment of playing with friends and kill some monsters.

Darkobra · Jan 04, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

When a fire burns, even when it's put out, the damage is done. I don't see any hope for GW1. I'm thinking that GW2 will be the fresh start we need.

Whatever they decide to do with PvE skills and consets will never really affect me, considering I've always played alone even before heroes. The groups you met back then were horribly bad. Now they have PvE skills as a crutch to help them walk again. I think that was ArenaNet's idea from the start. Something to help the "casual" player see elite areas through these skills. I'd be surprised if they did anything to try to make the game the way it was now.

Ultima pyromancer · Jan 05, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Economy? Whats that?!? :P

People seem to want more challenges, but its a bit hard. I've like over 4000 hours played. Whats left for me in PvE? Other than some title hunting, some skin hunting, there's nothing else... only the enjoyment of playing with friends and kill some monsters.

If people want challenges, then they can make the game more challenging. People choose to run Sabway/Dicord, they choose to use shadowform and smash their faces across their keyboards and still come out with a smile after earning 2 ectos. Nobody, i repeat nobody is forcing anybody to use these builds.

At the same time, people choose to run balanced with their heroes. They choose to do what they want because that is their way of having fun. So why should people be forced to play this way? This game is one step away from becoming a singleplayer tbh so how other people play really doesn't affect my style.

There is little enjoyment left in this game, so lets keep both parties happy?

Of course new content would be nice, but i don't see that happening soon.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

If people want challenges, then they can make the game more challenging. People choose to run Sabway/Dicord, they choose to use shadowform and smash their faces across their keyboards and still come out with a smile after earning 2 ectos. Nobody, i repeat nobody is forcing anybody to use these builds.

At the same time, people choose to run balanced with their heroes. They choose to do what they want because that is their way of having fun. So why should people be forced to play this way? This game is one step away from becoming a singleplayer tbh so how other people play really doesn't affect my style.

There is little enjoyment left in this game, so lets keep both parties happy?

Of course new content would be nice, but i don't see that happening soon.

I agree with most of that.

But we need to be careful. As long a skill doesn't kill the fundamentals of guild wars, its ok. A "press to win" button wouldn't interfere with other people way of playing, but it wouldn't be good.

UB killed the fundamentals of guild wars. Shadow Form made farming to easy (I like it more now, you are invincible but cant kill shit, like all worthless tanks out there).

Puebert · Jan 05, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

If people want challenges, then they can make the game more challenging. People choose to run Sabway/Dicord, they choose to use shadowform and smash their faces across their keyboards and still come out with a smile after earning 2 ectos. Nobody, i repeat nobody is forcing anybody to use these builds.

At the same time, people choose to run balanced with their heroes. They choose to do what they want because that is their way of having fun. So why should people be forced to play this way? This game is one step away from becoming a singleplayer tbh so how other people play really doesn't affect my style.

There is little enjoyment left in this game, so lets keep both parties happy?

Of course new content would be nice, but i don't see that happening soon.

Its not about taking away fun from other players or trying to enlarge your epeen, its about making it so it isn't such a 1234 skill mashing.

Roy_ · Jan 05, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I don't know if this has been posted (i'm to lazy to read the 4 pages :P)

I agree with almost everything...except SY,

mine-

3 sec recharge, 5 energy, and 12 adrenaline (all other party members gain +100 armour for 3...6 sec)

making it (i believe) unspamable and a semi quick recharge

knowing me this is a REALLY BAD idea but meh, i think its kind of ok.

ajc2123 · Jan 05, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestosilva

My opinion in this matter is this:

You want the chalenge->get with your friends/guildies and play a balanced build (like me and my guild always do with UW, FoW, etc).

This. I Like this post because its simple and to the point.

Let's others have their 'hard' game, lets people with lacking time or just on/off players run gimmicks if they want.

I can understand nerfing PvP aspects, but PvE...let players play the way they want to.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 05, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Frogger

I don't know if this has been posted (i'm to lazy to read the 4 pages :P)

I agree with almost everything...except SY,

mine-

3 sec recharge, 5 energy, and 12 adrenaline (all other party members gain +100 armour for 3...6 sec)

making it (i believe) unspamable and a semi quick recharge

knowing me this is a REALLY BAD idea but meh, i think its kind of ok.

I'm not understanding why SY! needs to be nerfed so badly. It's only permanently able to be maintained 100% of the time as a warrior through the use of FGJ...oh wait...FGJ can't be maintained 100% of the time. At most, you can maintain SY! for 30 seconds with the help of Enduring Harmony to make FGJ that long.

Not to mention the amount of melee hate from mobs in PvE. Blurred Vision, blind, and blocks all hinder SY! which is the reason I don't believe it's overpowered.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 05, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

If you truly believe the release of PvE-only skills is killing PvE, then the following skill should be nerfed:

-Pain Inverter - Yes, it's a gimmick because making elementalist bosses kill themselves in 1 spell isn't overpowered, right?

Pain Inverter is pretty much a staple skill in most people's bar when doing Vanquishing/HM stuff due to the fact that it makes killing mobs that deal alot of damage very easily.

No, not everyone brings Pain Inverter but it is more abused than Save Yourselves has ever been.

ajc2123 · Jan 05, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Everyone disagreeing with the need to nerf overpowered PvE skills is wrong, and if you'd like, I can pm you my real (uncensored) opinion of you.

When we fight, the terrorists win

Can't we just play the way we want to? Use gimmicks if you want, don't if you don't want to.

I dunno why GW makes everyone wanna balance the game so badly. I've been affected by it a couple times though lol.

Puebert · Jan 05, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

If you truly believe the release of PvE-only skills is killing PvE, then the following skill should be nerfed:

-Pain Inverter - Yes, it's a gimmick because making elementalist bosses kill themselves in 1 spell isn't overpowered, right?

Pain Inverter is pretty much a staple skill in most people's bar when doing Vanquishing/HM stuff due to the fact that it makes killing mobs that deal alot of damage very easily.

No, not everyone brings Pain Inverter but it is more abused than Save Yourselves has ever been.

Probably because Pain Inverter can be brought by any caster profession and only wars and paras can maintain SY?

SY!>PI

blackknight1337 · Jan 05, 2009, 05:49 AM // 05:49

This is comical.

First off, Arkantos wants to encourage more humans playing with humans. Thats all well and good, except last I checked, the number of people ingame is decreasing. Pugs fail, average Pug player skill for HM is pretty much nil, heroes are far more reliable. As for those in HM guilds, relatively speaking those of us who care to do HM have done it already.

Second, as has been said here before, the only way HM will be anything of a challenge is if groups have a random spawn selection. I'll drop a little hint for you here. For my HM work (Guardian, Vanquisher, etc) I never once used CoP, SY, or shadow form. And FYI, for your suggestions for Soul Reaping, they would in fact buff the last build I used for HM. It is pitifully easy to read on wiki what groups will spawn in what zone/mission and buildwarz them. Decent skill level, and the zone is done. And no, I don't count giving the level 20 atts and other retarded buffs as anything other than a lazy man's way out.

Finally, couple of people in this thread are really starting to act like borat (see HA threads if you don't know who that is), and we are really getting tired of your know-it-all attitude, and in general arrogant, stuck-up attitude. You know who you are, or at least you should if you have half the intelligence that you think you do. BTW, a 2005 join date means jack.

Hailey Anne · Jan 05, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

You're right, PvE is dead. Do you think these gimmicks are helping it?

Actually yes they are. these gimmick builds are pretty much the only reason alot of people group with pugs anymore. ALOT rather just H/H myself included.

/not signed on all changes.

Chronos the Defiler · Jan 05, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

I would love to see things reverted back from PvE skills and crap like this, I never run PvE skills on my bars and I have gotten Guardian and working on Vanquisher without many issues. Only problem I see is that with the 3 campaigns and 1 expansion to the player base is WAY too spread apart for pugs to be viable all the time, but heroes do the trick (and they can't bring PvE skills anyways

)

I usually go back to proph and do random missions with actual pugs (even thought I have it done already) because there are only so many places left with ACTUAL people wanting to party up for missions.

A11Eur0 · Jan 05, 2009, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Arky...these changes will kill PvE. People are not going to go back to doing elite areas with balanced teams if balanced teams take 2 hours and risk getting rolled in the process. Urgoz and the Deep were dead zones before ursan, and after. Then they were reborn with the factions change. If you remove these "gimmick builds" people will no longer run these areas unless they belong to a guild that does them a different way. Notice that your guild uses an Imbagon as part of their Urgoz clear. If you remove that, your physicalway team build will suffer. Your guild also uses consumables for their urgoz clear. Remove them and that's another hit in the groin of your guild's daily foray into the Warren. Your changes break every FUN way of completing elite areas. It's not FUN to waste 2 hours of your time for another Urgoz's flatbow and 6 amber. These changes will do very little other than drive more and more people to farm UW/FoW/dungeons with the STILL-OVERPOWERED-BY-YOUR-STANDARDS 600/smite build and will continue to make money. It will be a farmer's game. Removing triple-necro hero builds will keep people from being able to efficiently and reliably vanquish many areas of the game, and people are so used to the seamless play of heroes and henchmen that they'd probably rather quit this 4 year old game with a vaporware sequel and play something else than waste their time grinding the hell out of their HoMs.

In case you can't get the hint from that:

/unsigned.

That said: I vanquish with hero/hench and only one or two of the sabway necros. I usually take the MM and SS because I Vanquish with my warrior and i like barbs/MoP with minions. I use henchman healers and Gwen with her very nice VoR build is a staple in my vanquishing lineup. In areas with not many corpses, I take an earth warder or smite monk depending on the enemies. I don't run cryway...I BiP for cryway pugs on occasion in Urgoz but i'm trying to get my guildies/allies to be more familiar with Urgoz before I try introducing the TAM physicalway team build to them, which requires a little more knowledge of the area. And there it is: these gimmick builds allow inexperienced players to get the hang of and actually play in the elite areas without getting frustrated and quitting altogether.